I received a very irate phone call from a friend on Saturday afternoon, about some ignorant snowboarders who were using snowmobiles to access some powder on Togwotee Pass. Not really a big deal on it’s own really, but when you cross Wilderness (non-motorized) boundaries that are set aside for those that want peace and quite (and powder)…things can get ugly real quick. Here is his story. –Steve
(On a side note…incidences like these really make me appreciate living near Grand Teton National Park and all of it’s pristine backcountry. If you think it is important to protect areas from being overrun by snowmobiles, please support Winter Wildlands Alliance. Thanks.)
Map of area in question, with the Wilderness boundary cutting across the summit of Breccia Peak.
Knowing this area (and seeing these pictures), it sure looks like these cats were in the wrong.
Click photo for larger image.
Wow…well today was an amazing day on Togwotee Pass until I was skinning back to the car and ran into a large crew of bad apple hybrid snowboarders from Jackson poaching Wilderness (I ride a snowmobile and snowboard, so no hate in either category). It is the user’s responsibility to know Wilderness boundaries. Do any of you Jacksonites know these poachers? Guys like these ruin it for other snowmobilers and create a bad name by not knowing and then completely disregarding Wilderness boundaries after being told.
Togwotee Pass Wilderness Poaching by Snowmobiles.
It is my understanding that snowmobiles are not allowed on this bench, east of Beccia Peak.
For a little history, Togwotee Pass is the mecca of snowmobiling and there are few places to escape them…except in the Wilderness miles away the highway. Most backcountry skiers and boarders who ride Togwotee are from Dubois, Lander, and Riverton. These folks do not have the immediate pleasure to access Grand Teton National Park. Our playground is Togwotee and we have to find Wilderness to enjoy quiet, untracked powder. These boundaries are sacred to local backcountry users.
More blatant disregard for the Wilderness boundary.
So today, when I saw this large group poaching Wilderness, I was vocal in letting them know that they were breaking the law, could face a fine, and it is their responsibility to know the Wilderness boundaries as motorized users. I clearly explained and showed them where they needed to be riding so they wouldn’t be in Wilderness.
Hey…I’m lazy and have total disrespect for others and their rules.
Instead of following directions as to where they needed to be to be legal, they continued to argue, said they asked the Ranger and I was wrong and could take it up “with a judge.” They proceeded to snowmobile and highmark above. The conversation became heated with a remaining few, and I let them know I was taking their pictures and calling the Ranger since they wouldn’t leave Wilderness and left their group. 100 yards down was a cross country skier standing there with a map, and one of the snowmobilers coming near us. We flagged him, showed him the map, and explained it again, but his group continued to poach.
And yeah…we don’t have ORV permits to ride here either.
Back at the car, I talked to the Ranger from Black Rock who spoke to them this morning and specifically told them to be careful of the Wilderness boundaries up there. He was hoping to catch them in the parking lot and requested these photos. Sad thing is that it didn’t have to come to all this. Not too funny poaching Wilderness.
You would think hearing that and then an angry lone splitboarder heatedly explaining it to them they would get it…they didn’t. All season people have been poaching this area. We will be helping the Bridger-Teton crew sign this area this summer in order to alleviate conflicts like today, but it is frustrating until then. –Jeramie Prine
Unfortunately we have the same problem on the west side of the Tetons, specifically around Treasure Mountain. The snowboarding is unbelievable up there, but the approach is long so not many people make the trip. The low-angle western slopes offer easy access to snowmachines and though the Wilderness Boundary ridgeline is heavily signed, ‘bilers run rampant in the cirque to the southwest of Treasure. Fortunately the really good skiing is well out of reach for machines.
When did they stop wearing helmets on Togwotee?
yeah…i remember seeing sled tracks on a trip in the northern range near rammel mountain in the late 90’s. i was with a ranger and he called it in…said they had a good idea who was doing the poaching…but without catching them in the act…there wasn’t much they could do.
This shit pisses me off…I use a sled to access summer trailheads and other areas for about 60% of my BC turns in W Montana. Everyone I ride with is uber vigilent about knowing where wilderness boundaries are and respects them as well as individual national forest travel plans. Its NOT hard to do…these douche bags make everyone look bad.
These gapers were totally disrespecting this sacred backcountry Wilderness area and treating it like total “slackcountry.” These idiots dropped into FSB without any means of getting themselves back out… they skied less than half their line, traversed the other half, and then wollowed up a boot pack back out. They all (there were about 10 of them!)dropped in at the same time and stopped below eachother… forget about safe zones and etiquette… I don’t think they even had avy gear!
I could just imagine these loosers spraying about how they discovered a “misty stash of backcountry” and saying “it was mega-gnar and we totally savaged it like a phish jam.”
What a joke. They skied half a line, violated Wilderness boundaries, and pissed-off a bunch of locals in the process… not in good style, guys.
P.S. Wilderness areas on Togwotee are being violated with alarming frequency… I recently wrote a letter to the Forrest Service about poaching in the same exact area just last week… posted here: http://livethedreamcafe.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/more-togwotee-ski-pics-and-a-plea-for-wilderness-adherence/
The problem is the penalty the $90 tickets is nothing for a day of powder skiing. Especially when you know 99-100 you won’t be caught anyways. I am all about using snowmobiles and love riding them when I am not trying to ski. I also like the idea of areas with out snowmobile access that’s what is all about, everyone get what hey want if people follow the rules. Sad man sad. If they really thought they were right and then fig. out they were not I can let that go every once in a while but this is just people being pricks.
Derek…after talking to the Ranger, Rick Taylor, he told me the fine is $540 and they can also get another fine for violating a travel plan (aprox. $170). Definitely not a cheap ticket. These guys continued to poach long after I left according to my ski partners, so I am sure the ranger caught up to them at the parking lot…I hope.
Well from my own experience its $90 two years ago. the Max fine was more like $540 and like any other tix the max is nothing like what you get. A DUI can be 6 months in jail but you dont get it your first time ya know.
It gets worse around here every year. So sick of the attitudes and lack of respect for ones surroundings. Hope they got fined.
great letter matt!!! i hope you guys can get something to change up there.
I was with Matt and it was just like he said. At one point I was spottinng while Matt was skiing a very techinical line. One of these guys pulled up beside me and left his machine running while he looked in. I had to tell him to go because I could not hear Matt. I also couldn’t see him so we had no comunication. I am the last one to get upset about things but these guys suck. They only skied half the bowl and then managed to put 10 tracks ACROSS the middle of it. The next time they may drop in over someone and and cause a slide or rock fall or whatever. If anyone knows these guys they need to hear about there BS. If you are friends with them do them a favor and let them know what the problem is. Poaching the wilderness is a huge problem and when people bring this kind of ignorance it is all the worse.
Honestly, this is one reason why I love living in Canada. Our national parks encompass most of our mountain areas, and those that are not inside a national park are either conservation areas of provincial parks. This makes it very difficult for users of motorized vehicles to disturb the areas. Unfortunately, ‘bilers seem to still find areas and ways to mess things up, like last month near Revelstoke. Hundreds of people parked their sleds directly below a large slope (almost none of them had avy gear), and then several other sledders proceeded to high mark that face. Just plain idiocy. The slope fractured hit most of the onlookers. No, not all ‘bilers are idiots disturbing wildlife and natural areas, but there sure are a lot of them making a mess of our wilderness areas, all across North America.
I’ll pitch in a ten spot for anyone who knows em and turns em in. Motorized poaching burns me up!
this is a pretty typical example of the attitude,ignorance and lack of respect that is the new standard behavior we see every day in the once respected mountains.Sorry but the new crop of ski bums have a lot to learn.You don’t have to look very far to find a dumbass.
yeah mike…definitely less progression out there these days. I want it…and want it NOW!!!!
At least they riders, not just smokers. I’m not excusing their actions, but it’d be worse if they were just out “2-stroken” themselves.
well it’s tough when people decide not to listen to reason- does anyone know if these guys were fined or not? because some people just need to learn the hard way- we know that machines and human-powered uses can get along- breaking wilderness boundary is one thing and then to follow it up by wasting the slope is really poor form- this kind of use causes knee-jerk reactions and sets us up for disagreements in the future- in working on teton pass i’ve found that "most" sledders will listen and pay attention to the boundaries because they don’t want to lose the access- togwotee seems like a different vibe with more machines- we know we’re going to cross paths in the backcountry- so let’s take the high road and work together- as for this crew of sledders it sounds like it was time for the ranger to do a little spankin’
OMR in my opinion it would be better if they were just on their machines. Other than the wilderness tresspass the thing that bothered me the most was how they skied the bowl we were in. If you are going to drop into a sweet untracked backcountry bowl at least ride or ski the whole thing. Suck it up and get your turns and go for the big boot out. Anyone who leaves 500+ vert of fresh turns has their priorities all messed up.
Respect both.
ampassador…after a few years back when snowmobilers made their way to the top of glory and edelweiss, we are lucky that they seem to be sticking to their own terrain these days.
First off if you are looking to get away from sleds go to the park and not national forest, I am 100 % positive that if one ass was to say nicely that they were not in the right spot and they were 50 feet from where they should have been they would of done so. Instead some typical bad ass skier having a baby fit and spitting mad, he yells at them and tells them to die in a slide, so at that point would you say yes kid stop crying we were misinformed or just watch a full grown man act like a little bitch…….thx and have a nice day braaaaaaaaap
mr brapp…your logic is…let’s see…retarded!!!! you are saying if you are robbing a bank…and a cop was mad at you and wanted to arrest you…you would then just keep going about robbing the bank??? it’s about respect. respect the rules…respect your bros…respect the environment.
the sledders were in the wrong…it’s that simple.
As one of the snowmobilers involved in incident near Breccia Peak, last Saturday, I would like to take this opportunity to respond this post and the comments. Let me begin by saying that I am in agreement that the wilderness area is very special place that needs to be protected so that everyone can enjoy it. Also at no time was I or any member of my group intentionally or blatantly attempting to violate the wilderness boundary. Furthermore I apologize for any infraction that occurred that day. The following is the other side of the story.
The reason that this incident even occurred is the result of miscommunication between the U.S. Forest Service and my group. Prior to heading up towards Breccia peak we were met in the parking lot by two Rangers who were checking to make sure that everyone had their permits, we did (everyone also had avy gear, if you care). During this time the rangers asked us where we were going, we told them toward Breccia, and they wanted to make sure that we knew where the boundary was. During our discussion of the boundary line with the Rangers, what essentially happened, was that they confirmed our inaccurate information. Following this conversation we heading up towards Breccia peak with the impression that ridgeline extending down from Breccia peak and around the meadow towards Radio Tower was the boundary line.
Once we arrived in the meadow we headed to the east side of the valley to wait for the rest of our group (at this point there were three of us). While waiting in the meadow we encountered Jeramie. Now before we detail the encounter there are a few things everyone should know about the area (if you don’t already). One, none of the wilderness boundaries are marked in any sort of way in this area. Two, sledder/skier conflicts are common in the Togwotee area. That being said, when I was approached by this erratic, screaming man who immediately began his conversation with threats and hostility, I was apprehensive. Being that I was by myself at the time Jeramie approached me combatively and seemed as through he wanted to make this a physical altercation. It wasn’t until my other friend showed up this extreme aggressiveness simmered down.
Over the next twenty minutes, Jeramie screamed at us, made threats, and flat out refused to listen to anything we had to say about our earlier encounter with the rangers. Never at any time did he try and provide us with a clear reference as to where the boundary actually was, he simply yelled, “Your wrong, it’s over there (pointing west), I KNOW!” He didn’t have a map and unfortunately neither did we. So what it all boiled down to was our word which we felt was accurate after talking with the rangers versus the word of this man who had completely lost his cool.
Jeramie you were right in your post when you said it didn’t have to come to this, but you were the one brought it to this point. You forgot some of the most important rules in life, Respect gets respect, because of the way your behaved when you approached us, you and any credibility you had was immediately dismissed. I am a very reasonable person and made every attempt to rationally discuss our argument, even referring to you as sir at the beginning of our conversation, but you were simply too emotional and irate to speak with. Had you remained calm and provided at least a landmark or other reference as to where the boundary was the outcome of this incident could have been completely different. We probably would have listened to you, since none of us had any intention or desire to snowmobile in the wilderness, we simply wanted ride some good pow just like you and everyone else up there.
If anything there are lessons to be learned by both parties. As snowmobilers and backcountry travelers we need have accurate maps as well as an understanding of where the boundaries are, marked or not, and not rely on verbal information given by others. We also need to have respect the other people who are trying to enjoy this amazing area, whether that person is on a machine or not, we need to treat everyone in the way we ourselves would like to be treated. It is always much easier to get your point across when you are calm and can rationally present your argument.
I would like to finish this post by saying that after this incident I have a much better understanding of the boundary lines in this area and will always respect them as I respect the lines in other areas. I will also do my part to make sure that any other snowmobilers I am with up there know where the boundary is and respect it as well. In an area such as Togwotee, that is so popular with snowmobiling, having unmarked boundary lines is recipe for inevitable conflict between snowmobilers and skiers. We need to work together and be smart about how we handle these issues before any conflicts get out of hand. We also need to get rid of the agroness, no one likes it and the is no room for it in such a beautiful place. Finally, to Jeramie, I respect you and the work that you do to try and protect such special places and I’m sorry our encounter went so terribly. My only request to you is that the next time you have a problem with a sledder, which you will because it’s Togwotee, try and remain calm and clear when you present your case, I think you will see that you will get more results. (and then if they ignore you, fuck em’ your right karma will get them).
this is sad. every pic i see has a person on a sled but has no way to show that they are in wilderness. These guys could be somewhere elts for all we know! from what I understand had Jeramie been calm and rational to these guys he would have had a better interaction with these guys. I talked with them at the end of the day and informed them “with a map” that they were not suppose to be there on sleds. we talked for a bit and I learned about the whole story of there previous talk with Jeramie and how Irate he was.
jim…thank you for telling your side of the story…and for remaining civil at the same time. togwotee is jeramie’s backyard and i can see how controlling his emotions might have been hard. sometimes i see people on the gtnp trails…and i nearly loose my cool every time.
Jim,
You fail to leave out of your story, that after I left your group, I ran into a cross country skier with a map in the meadow. We flagged down one of your partners and showed him the map that is above, but your group continued to poach the wilderness hours after I was gone according to my ski partners who were in the bowl. So even after one of your group knew you were in the wrong, you guys continued to break the law. So because I was vocal and not respecting you that makes it ok to break the law? WTF?
I kept telling you, specifically, that the Wilderness line runs down the center of the mountain, but you continued to argue and not listen. You are right about me skiing down to you in a heated fashion because I wanted to be sure you didn’t run off on your sled and I wanted to catch your attention. I did calm down and you and your friends continued to argue with me. This led me to get more upset.
When I called Rick Taylor, the Ranger, he told me that he specifically told you boys that the Wilderness boundaries are tricky up there. You would think a pissed off local and a Ranger telling you to be careful that you would listen, but you did not.
Damn straight I was heated, for all I know it is you guys who have been poaching this area all season. Locals are fed up with it and we are becoming vocal with this issue. There is some history here that you fellows fails to appreciate. You do not care about Wilderness boundaries and you proved your point by continuing to poach it after I left, so let’s tell the whole truth.
Jeramie
i completely concur with Jim! well said
One last thing, what about the three other locals that you disrespected up there after I left? How do you explain those actions?
Hey,
This is Matt responding again. I was up there (Togwotee – Breccia) skiing Saturday. I missed the whole incident between Jeramie and Jim, so I don’t know what happened with respect to the details of that particular confrontation.
My friend, Lee, and I did encounter Jim and his friends still snowmobiling in Wilderness at least two hours after the Jeramie/ Jim encounter.
I took a much different approach to Jim’s group and their Wilderness poaching that day. Namely, I tried to ignore them.
I had just written and submitted a formal complaint letter to the Forest Service about poaching I witnessed in the same area just a week earlier: http://livethedreamcafe.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/more-togwotee-ski-pics-and-a-plea-for-wilderness-adherence/
And Lee and I had been talking about religion/Buddhism, meditation and how skiing in this particular region is our way to connect with the supreme being, i.e. God, the Creator, etc.
So, I just ignored the literal buzzing in my ears and meditated away the noise, the Wilderness infractions, and the overall disharmony occurring at that moment.
Now, I don’t know which was worse… calling out the violators like Jeramie tried to do or ignoring the violators like I did? Jeramie and Jim obviously didn’t make any positive progress with respect to resolving the conflict. And I can be accused of shirking my responsibilities and not doing my part to help uphold the Wilderness boundary.
Just to clear up some logistical issues, the slope Jim’s group was high marking is relatively low angle and avalanche risks are essentially a non-issue on that particular slope. The bigger issue with respect to that slope is that it is most definitely in Wilderness and the snow was pretty nice on that slope Saturday (usually the wind scours away any soft snow on that slope). I would have loved to ski that run, but it was tracked out by snowmobiles by the time I got there.
Also, Jim’s group dropped into a nearby bowl and bootpacked back up and out. It was fine that they skied the bowl. But I found the manner in which they skied the bowl to be pretty disrespectful. Namely, they dropped in like it was an in-bounds run at a crowded resort on a powder day. Everyone charged it at essentially the same time with no avy protocols or backcountry etiquette. But that didn’t even bother me that much… I was out of the way and didn’t feel like they were dropping in above me. I just felt sad that this beautiful place was being so objectified… I just didn’t see any respect for the mountains from Jim’s group.
Jim I agree with you about keeping it calm. I did keep it calm the whole time and hardly even spoke to you guys even while you were gapeing it up in a place I ski a few times a week. I stayed calm while I watched you guys cut tracks across a completely fresh bowl and in my mind disrespect a sacred place. There were even people with you who had the gear to skin out and a skin track. I know we all have different perspectives but if you ask around I think you will find most bc skiers agree that going around with a group of ten people and swamping a single area is bad form, traversing a fresh bowl because you are to weak to climb out from the bottom is,, well weak. 10 people dropping in on top of each other is dangerous. And poaching the wilderness because you don’t have a map is retarded. So please (I am typing this in a very calm way) if that day was an example of how you and your crew operate stay out of there.
Kudos to Matt, Lee, and Jeramie for calling it like it is with motorhead wilderness poaching.
No excuses for wilderness boundary violations on Togwotee or anywhere else. Period.
Jim and his crew should consider themselves lucky that other Togwotee locals were not there at the time. They may not have shown as much restraint as Jeramie did (regardless of the picture that Jim wants to paint.)
Read your map correctly or stay home. It’s not the fed’s responsibility to hold your hand and show you where to go, Jim. But I bet you can guess where I think you should go.
Jim “We also need to get rid of the agroness, no one likes it and the is no room for it in such a beautiful place.”
…. but let me drive my loud fucking machine right into the middle of it.
Hypocrite. Not much more “agro” out there than the sound of a 2stroke.
It’s, what, a mile & a half from the highway and you need a machine to get there? In or out of the wilderness, it doesn’t matter. You are pussies. Weak-assed pussies.
Steve – Thanks so much for this web site, I am enjoying this thread very much :+}. Seriously folks….
1. Going into the BC without a good map (even if you have been there 100 times) is really silly , via sled or foot travel (we have all done it, including me) but there are so many times that while working for the NPS I come across an “experienced” traveler that is lost and has no map. I have never been down there so it might be straight forward but still.
I remember a few years ago some climbers that were “experienced” and attempted a fast climb of Mt Hood, so no emergency gear in their packs, not enough food or essentials, etc etc. Well of course these “experienced” climbers also forgot to check the weather and failed to see a huge pacific storm heading their way. Well we all know what happened next… Lost climbers in white out conditions without the gear to save them, blah blah blah ….. Three dead climbers when they did find them frozen stiff after the storm. The point is this … If you are going be prepared including doing your research on what is or is not wilderness it is pretty easy (if you can read a map).
2. I live up here in the northern end of Yellowstone (Mammoth), and I used to make trips to Cooke City religiously but not anymore due to over use and abuse of sleds. I would really think that most sleders would be aware of their behavior so as to NOT give themselves a bad name IE: Have more restrictions imposed due to reckless actions example: This thread. I hear time and time again from snowmobilers how we (the US Gov’t) are taking away access..and it’s not fair , and why are we getting picked on etc etc etc. Well , lets see ? …….. I wonder.
Just my 2 cents …. Thanks again Steve – Enjoy the fresh snow !!
PS.. I am a different JIM than the accused above :+]
“If you don’t know, don’t go….”
supreme being felt the snow was being objectified! wow bro! so sorry? the deep Buddha country just feels so shallow! lately maybe ya’ll need some more! powder!
wow…a rare x-reed comment. you guys must really have poor argument.
thanks jim! just stopped snowing here in jackson. can’t wait to get some tomorrow!!!
Nobody from wyoming would throw such a hissy fit over a few hundred yards discrepancy. You guys must be only childs from New York or something especially this jeremie fellow, why even waste the time arguing with this guy? 2 strokes are a delightfull sound to some, get some ear plugs matt. God hates narcs more than sledders. I think the cops are hiring passionate fuckers like you guys to watch the border of Mexico. You should all look into it, maybe consider moving.
WOW just when I thought this post was done.
Jeramie: Everyone is a Local in Wilderness area’s it’s the People’s land, This land is our land this land is your land etc etc etc……you and me! 🙂
Side note: FYI No more wildernesses will be set aside in Wyoming with out the State Governments approval. This was a provision in the last bill-designating wilderness, so enjoy and protect what you have but don’t count on getting more anytime soon. I hate when people threaten snowmobiles that their land will taken away if they make someone mad. Not to mention the use of snowmobiles far exceeds the use of ski up their last time I check. I wasn’t their so I wont guess who is right or who is wrong but it is best if everyone stays calm and realizes we have somethi8ng special here an dif we don’t figure out a way to get along things will get much worse like some state to the south.
ha! nice dig.
ya, next time bring a BBQ!
Poacher Jim is right and I need to be honest with myself. I have had a chance to simmer down and think about it. I did not give him respect when I first approached him and I might have seemed threatening (one splitboarder and 15 hybrids).
Growing up here in Wyoming, I was raised by the principle that in order to get respect, you have to give respect. Since Poacher Jim was not respecting Wilderness boundaries, laws, and locals, I gave him the same respect he EARNED by his actions. I am glad he got my point. I am 99% positive that if a local snowmobiler caught him in the act, the reaction would be the same. People like you ruin it for everyone.
I pretty much told you and your huge crew this on Saturday, and not behind a computer screen.
They were not threats. I told you I would take your picture, I did. I told you I would call the Ranger, I did. I told you that you were trespassing, you were. I clearly told you where the boundary was repeatedly, you didn’t listen. I told you that I was with Togwotee Pass Backcountry Alliance and that we are in the process of working with the Forest Service and Rick Taylor (the Ranger who spoke to you in the morning) for signing this specific area because of these very problems, you called bullshit. I showed your bro a MAP and another local was there to confirm this, and you poached it for two more hours. As far as the karma suggestion I gave you at the end of our delightful conversation, that is up to you.
You are right. I don’t respect you or your crew.
X-Reed said it best. “If you don’t know, don’t go.”
Please do yourself and everyone else in Wyoming, who enjoys their rights, a favor. Go…buy yourself a splitboard and earn your turns.
hey leave splitboards outta this! ya, get out of WY! 2muchtrouble! leave it to backcountry hardcores! theres still plenty of Realcountry!
fishingworms and wannabesomeonelikeu why don’t “yall” put your names. I am willing to stand behind everything I write. I am confident in my ethic, my ability and my respect for each and every persone. Like everyone that has posted here I get around on and in all kinds of machines. As a matter of fact in the summers I spend a lot of time following a motocross legend around on a 4 wheeler. If you can’t see the importance of wilderness as a place to get away from those machines than you probably havn’t spent much time back there. I grew up in Ohio and I get to liston to people all the time that “from here” but yet don’t know the country or even want to have anything to do with it.
WannaBe-I am a third generation Wyomingite. Wasn’t going to pull that card, but since you brought it up. Maybe that is why I am so passionate. Derek is right about the fact that everyone is local on wilderness, so act like, learn to read a map, and know the boundaries. That is a little task to ask. touche douche
ya! go oHIo! threeB’s and K road catfishing, heard of it? ya my ethics prohibit me from fishing “wilderness” since it is to hard to catch anything on worms, they seem to prefer flys! whats up with that?
Ya that one confuses me to.
3rd generation holla coal minners son’s son’s son.
touche douche
Jim, kudos for coming clean hopefully people can learn from this issue. Quick observation. Steve mentioned seeing tracks in the wilderness near Rammel Mountain in the tetons in the late 90’s. Since then they have put up signage, 15′ tall as to not get buried in the winter. The signs have not kept people from crossing the line. In fact, the forbidden fruit tempts those who don’t care or understand the intentions of the wilderness act. The signs are ugly in all seasons and wilderness does not deserve having any more signage then what already exists. Listen to x-reed.
ON the lighter side, I haven’t skied FSB since the late 90’s and have always been curious about the nomenclature. Who is this french guy?
Fishing worms,
Life’s gonna’ be rough for you. You just don’t get it. One of these days you’ll get caught out there poaching wilderness and be in for a beating, not just a shouting match. You deserve the karma you get….
ya maybe when i get a sled! i wasn’t even threre dumbass! I live in mt! and you are very hostile for being so in touch with nature! as for a beating? that is just funny! good luck with that!
Quite the banter back and forth. Seems like there is very little in between on this hotly contested issue. I am a skier first and foremost. However, I do use a sled as an access tool all the time up on Togwotee due to the long approaches. So, I like to think I see this issue both ways.
Jeramie, no one is going to argue with you seeing sleds poaching Wilderness areas is really unfortunate and not ok. Furthermore, from your take, it sounds like there was blatant disregard for the boundary after the sled skiers in question were told of their infractions.
However, given that you are a 3rd generation Wyomingite and passionate Togwotee user, I gotta say, you should know better! I am in no way excusing the acts of the sled skiers on Saturday. But really, you would have been equally as pissed seeing sled skiers up there regardless if they were 10 ft over the boundary line and or 10 ft inside of it. If you are as passionate of a Togwotee user as it sounds, you should be well aware the sled and skier lines have been blurred in the Breccia area for years.
You can easily alleviate your distaste for this crowd by where you choose to ski. Go boot up some sweet couliors off the Pinnacles where you know user conflict is a mute point. Lay some turns on the east side of Two Ocean, et. Just know that Breccia is a quick hit location that doesn’t require an immense amount of effort to get to and expect conflict if you go there. I am not saying you have to love it, but the sleds have been on Togwotee for a very long time and this will not change. Tailor your skiing as such, that is what I did a long time ago, and outside of hearing them, I never see them.
And oh yea, when did Togwotee become the domain of only "locals" from the eastern side of the divide?
Did the “poachers” get a ticket? This is as good as it gets for evidence against the evil “poachers”.
Let me get this right, all they had to do was move over on the same pitch to be legal? Just sounds like a bad place to ski. Especially if you dont want to see anybody. I would EXPECT trouble from that area……..maybe thats the real intention, especially after losing ones temper. Getting it off your chest sometimes feels good eh?
It should say Thee Adam Olson, you just stay up there in Montucky and ski your big couloir Mr. Olson. You and Your brother and all those othere deviants from big sky,
hey in the grey,
When you make one exception you’ll soon find your whole wilderness is made of exceptions.
You thinly veil your charachter attack on Jeramie with your "I like to think I see this from both sides" approach.
If you see it from both sides, how is it that you take the time to post and admonish Jeramies behavior while you don’t once address the people who actually broke laws?
"I wouldn’t have been speeding officer, but that other motorist was really mad!"
That’s almost as ridiculous as indicating that a lone skier somehow intimidated and thus victimized a plethora of sledders.
As the alleged "Nate" the "douche bag" from "Boulder" with "duct tape purple pants" who "acts a fool in Baker" and perhaps "rides a jones", and has "no back country gear" i have multiple things to address. Also, it is hard to defend ones self and not be rude
In regards to Jeramie Prine, i am under the impression he is a passionate local skier. He has brought certain allegations of my character to light which i do not appreciate. Although all of this internet madness is stupid and a waste of time, i do not appreciate being hated upon for things i am not guilty of. Here is my side of the story.At this point i will state that it is every backcountry users responsibility to be aware of closures and boundaries.
When i snowmobiled to a plateau upon which this altercation was already underway, there were two view points regarding the wilderness boundaries. The group of snowmobilers was confident that the ridge separating Breccia and French Spy bowl was the wilderness boundary. this was due to a conversation with Rangers hours before at the parking lot and due to the free snowmobile maps posted by the state of Wyoming. http://wyotrails.state.wy.us/Snow/pdf/continentaldivide.pdf When one picks a map like this up in the physical, perhaps at a ranger station, rangers admit that the boundries may be incorrect. Perhaps i am solo on this but does the Forest Service ever really know what is going on? can they ever give anyone a definite answer on any boundary? not in my experience.
It was the position of mr Prine that the wilderness boundary is in the center of the Cliffy face of Breccia. This is reflected in the map above or at http://tetonat.staging.wpengine.com/2010/04/togwotee-pass-wilderness-snowmobile-poachers/
Now nether party had maps, so it was one’s word against another’s. it should be obvious to all that this was a circular argument and obviously went nowhere. it is true that Mr. Prine found a map on another skier and showed this map to a member of our snowmobiling group. unfortunately this was well after we had parted ways to go sled where Mr. Prine had told us we could sled legally. All of the pictures Mr. Prine took were in fact taken after our conversation with him, when we made a decision to leave the hostile skier, and the area he deemed illegal. everyone knows that we as a community, (mountain/ snow lovers) go into the back country to have fun. no one wishes any ills on anyone else, especially the wilderness its self.
In addition, what people need to realize who have no idea where this is, is that, it is not like we tossed some boo to erase a boundry, or dropped into some insane bowl with bald eagles or something. The area in dispute was approximately five acres, and was disputed in accordance to the viewing of different maps at different times. lets face it. in togwotee espceially, there is a huge history of dispute between man power-ers and horse power-ers. It is obviously overdue for NFS to do something to make these irrefutable. No one wants to break rules. California is in way more trouble than Wyoming and they can put up a bamboo line designating boundaries of wilderness. This certainly is not the first time this boundary has been fought over, perhaps after Mr. Prine tends to it with the Service this spring like he claimed he would be doing this will resolve. this dispute once and for all. I hope so.
Now somewhere in cyberspace it has been cited i am from boulder. This should be a testament to my respect for nature as boulder is the golden Calf of environmentally friendly cities/counties. Also being from colorado, which contains in its mountains, the most unstable snow in the country, i am very respectful of other people. seven snowmobiles parking on the flats posses no avalanche danger. snow does not fracture, release, or gain momentum on flats. this makes avalanche impossible. also whoever was hating on our lack of gear, please stop. everyone clearly has a pack on. you can see my shovel handle on mine. I practice beacon skills, and more than likely, if i see you get caught in a slide when i am on my sled, i will be the first one there to make sure you go home alive. in addition we all believe in sleds as tools. none of us are dumb enough to ride under anything anyone would want to ski or snowboard on.
In regards to the baker comment, sorry if you thought i was arrogant and ignorant. I believe in right of way. Waiting for others to drop in on the arm does not seem like ether to me. sorry i didn’t drop in above you and the my manners, etiquette, and safety observances were on par. Sorry i was friendly, and good mannered. I do not think highly of myself. Those stabs felt great. Thanks for the compliments. Hope your not bitter because i passed you on the boot pack. Banked slalom is always chaotic anyways.
No i do not ride a jones, the mountain twin charges groomers though. Lay off the purple pants. who cares if i use duct tape to keep them together. and finally Mr. Prine, i do not appreciate you addressing me as a douch on this here interweb, and wishing that the ranger penetrated me with out Vaseline. This is quite inappropriate. You and i both know we did not speak a word to each other. you were shouting too loud to hear anyone else’s words anyways.
so if anyone wishes to respond to this please be nice. i wont read it anyways. no naughty words. The rest of you who spend your lives on blogs quit crying, unplug your computing machine and go fucking ski.
love,
jake
Josh, pretty sure I indicated quite clearly, “I in no way am excusing the acts of the sled skiers”. So yes, I do see it both ways. Ultimately it was the sled skiers who were at fault for being over the boundry. Period. End of story. With that said, go deeper Jeramie, ski lines that slednecks can’t get to, if you know Togowotee at all, you will find this is a very simple thing to accomplish. And, given that you are part of the Togwotee Alliance, realize you are an ambassador up there and to remain calm when interacting with offenders, keep your cool, and everyone can get along.
There have been a few comments on how we (those of us who ski Togwotee on a regular basis) should just go somewhere else. This doesn’t make sense to me. So the guys who are accessing things with out machines should go even further away because the guys with machines need the stuff close to the highway. Also as far as knowing that area I can assure you there is much knowledge in my group of friends. I ski up there two or three time a week all winter. A couple of my friends have been skiing up there since before most people even knew how to start a snowmobile. When I am up there I mostly ski sunup to sundown, I like to end my day watching the sun set behind the Tetons from one vantage point or another. Then I stay the night in my rented space and often eat at one of the restaurants (you should try the chicken fried steak at the lava mountain lodge) on the pass helping support the economy up there. So the logic behind the boundary isn’t clearly marked and people are going to trash everything anyway so don’t ski the sickest terrain on Togwotee just doesn’t work in my opinion.
Like sand through an hour glass so are the……………………! ?
Hey Lee,
I’m from Colorado. Please DONT visit.
You guys spend too much time crying over a little area, who cares if they barely crossed the boundaries, it sounds like they were the ones who acted maturely and respectfully. Theres plenty of pow out there for everyone so rather than bitching at ‘bilers why dont you slap a smile on your face and go have some fun?
Why do you trustafarian backcountry skiers hate sledders so much? These people were out there trying to make some great turns just like you. Snowmobilers don’t spend their time fucking with your ability to access mountains and enjoy the pow, so why do you have to try so hard to limit their access. Besides that, most snowmobilers are unable to sled up lines that are steep enough to be exciting on skis, so the most fun lines are still reserved for skiers. Both sides should leave each other be and have fun playing in the backcountry.
well, you slednecks sure are late to this one.
while i agree that we should live and let live (to some extent), I don’t believe we should disregard regulations in the process. the simple fact is that these guys violated the wilderness boundaries…which are put there for a reason, one of them being to set aside terrain for non-motorized users.