Today on Mount Saint John.
Click all photos for larger image.
Well, I think I need to have my head examined for not heeding my own advice to pull in the reigns this weekend due to a current questionable snowpack at the higher elevations here in the Tetons. Sometimes though, the lure to try and ski bigger, steeper and more exposed lines is just too great. Luckily though, my partner and I dodged a bullet today in one of the South Couloirs that come off Mount Saint John and drop you into Hanging Canyon, and I’m still here to tell the story.
The day started off great with not a single car in the
String Lake parking lot as Chris Onufer and I pulled in at
5:30am, and we were greeted with a fantastic sunrise.
Down low and with an overnight low temperature in the teens,
the snow is rock solid and makes for fast travel
if you have the right gear and know how to use it.
Chickens in the Tetons.
As we made our way into Hanging Canyon and towards one
of Mount Saint John’s south couloirs, the clouds began to roll in
and the snowpack started to ever so slightly become a bit more punchy.
We transitioned to bootpacking just below the lower choke
of the couloir and try to stay in the more protected areas
as we make our way upward.
Now above 10k’, the snow begins to get deeper.
The high peaks of the Tetons in the clouds and wind today.
Though we tried to stay in the safer zones of the couloir, we were occasionally
forced to crossed some more open sections. The snow pack now consisted of a few inches
of a melt-freeze crust, on top of about 8″ of softer snow, on top of
another rain/sun crust that was semi-supportable.
We thought about turning around and pulling the plug a few times, but the temps
were still cold and we though that we’d be able to make our way safely down the
skiers left side of the couloir, without any problems. As we got higher, summit fever
started to build and the stoke to ski was hard to ignore.
We topped out at about 9:30am, in the sun and with a temperature
of 14F, before the sun went behind the clouds for much of the rest of the day.
I think this is the true summit of Mount Saint John.
Now the fun part. Feeling pretty leery of conditions, we planned on being as cautious as possible as we made our descent, making ski cuts when we could, skiing one at a time and from island-of-safety to island-of-safety. On my first turn off the top though, a soft-slab 10-12″ deep, 10-20″ wide and about 50″ long pulled out and began moving down the upper face. It continued downward for about 200′ and then propagated another avalanche that fractured wall-to-wall about 18-24″ deep. It produced an impressive flow of snow that crashed into the lower walls of the couloir and raged over the broken rock bands below. We could see the powder cloud roar out from the bottom of the couloir and into the bottom of Hanging Canyon.
We were now pretty freaked out and really hoped no one was in the canyon as they for sure would have gotten nailed by the avalanche debris. We still needed to get down though and there was a bit of hang fire lingering on the upper face. We choose to ski the slide path of the first soft-slab that released, before we dropped over the lower crown line and where pretty much the whole couloir became the slide path.
There was some pretty good force created by this slide
and some trees and boughs littered slope.
The whole slope was totally scoured by the avalanche and there
would have been zero chance of survival if one were
to be caught in it. Thankfully, we weren’t.
As we exited through the choke, our focus began
to turn back towards the thought that someone just
might have been ski-touring below us.
To make sure there is no one buried in the debris, we pull
out our transceivers and start to do a course search of the debris zone.
We didn’t get any hits, which eased our minds.
The slide ran about 2k’ and though the debris was quite spread out, the majority of it ended up just above this last photo and maybe up to 10′ deep. About 2 minutes after we arrived at the toe of the debris pile, a group of three skiers came up the canyon. Thankfully they weren’t there 20 minutes earlier, or it might have been ugly.
Time to rest for a few days Romeo. Glad you and Chris are alright and things didn’t turn out with injury, or worse. I like my friends alive and well! Stay safe. Live to Ski is your motto, after all….
Thanks for the quick post Steve. It is nice to get a feel for what is happening out there with the interaction of Teton skiers on your site. Lets all keep it going. With the drop of skier traffic, as well as no avi report it’s in our best interests. Glad everyone one is okay, had a feeling the String Lake area would see some action today when the gates opened.
Good report Steve. Take it easy out there.
Wow, that was intense. Thank you for the pics and the analysis of the slide. I am glad you are OK. Be safe.
Thanks guys. Just a little freaked out to ski anything remotely interesting now.
Wow. Glad you’re safe and that there was no one below you.
Next time, I’ll take you out for some low-angle, old man skiing!
As one of the three skiers that was coming up from below, I am glad we didn’t hurry yesterday morning, and that the splitboarder gal’s binding broke, or else they would have been ahead of us.
Just goes to show that nothing happens in a vacuum in a well-traveler range like the Tetons. I’ve worried about being “dropped in on” up on the Pass for years now, your big debris pile brought it home for the higher mtns as well.
Stay on top!
thanks for the frank discussion of avalanches, snowpack and decsion making! stay safe steve and for crap sake take a week off!
Gut feelings…always trust them. That could be a post in it’s own. Glad everyone is safe and thanks for sharing.
Its a pretty interesting “spring”. We are getting similar conditions in the alpine here in Colorado. Backed off of Torrey’s the other day and knocked off a little slide at the bottom on the way back out. And its still snowing.
Glad your OK! set off some whumphing the other day up here in the nw, sketchy times. hoping for corn soon!
Xtranormal says…
How about some mountainbiking or paragliding?
No, I am going to keep skiing big exposed terrain despite the conditions because…
I would have to follow and agree with Ptor’s logic. Why is it that you had previously recognized the less than good stability issues but yet, still skinned and booted right on up? You stated the stability had been on the poor side, new snow, variable conditions, even though the temp was 15*, what about solar radiation, heating on on aspects that had slightly different aspects, the objective hazard you could of potentially created for other users in a well traveled area…. Yes, because… Just curious really, and I like to learn something new everyday. I do enjoy your reports, so don’t get me wrong, just curious.
dex…sometimes people mis-judge things and conditions, which is what happened here. i thought it would be stable enough…but it wasn’t. simple as that, really.
Despite ascending a line with fatal consequences, in questionably stable conditions, you mentioned nothing of digging a pit or performing any sort of quantitative stability tests. Is digging and analyzing the snow something you routinely forgo?
jk…we did some hand pits on the way up, but it’s pretty hard to gauge how strong a melt/freeze crust once you isolate it.
Steve, I saw in another post from earlier this winter that you don’t dig many pits. Me either, sometimes. But in high consequence terrain maybe try an ECT; I started doing this test this year and it’s great. I still got surprised a few times lately though!
Steve made a mistake and admits to it. “I need to have my head examined for not heeding my own advice”. Some days we go with our gut not the lab jacket. I have yet to meet anyone who hasn’t rolled the dice or cut corners on safety by going with their gut feelings. And I have yet to meet anyone who hasn’t at some point ignored their gut instincts.
Remember that first word under your Teton AT header…..
That’s funny, Johnny. And True. Managing risk is part art, part science, part luck.
“Live to Ski” is an idea based upon risk and adventure. Who wants to go unchallenged in life?
Today’s Headline at the online Wall Street Journal:
“U.S. Rolled Dice in Osama bin Laden Raid””
http://online.wsj.com/home-page?refresh=on
With risk comes reward.
holy crap. i don’t think an ect would have predicted much here…its a good test, but can lead to a false sense of stability AND instability. you cant test every aspect at every elevation of a slope.
Wow! Thanks for sharing. By posting this, it shows humility, not hubris. I wonder if you really did make a mistake? It sounds like you were more surprised mostly by the scale of the slide. You were still behaving somewhat cautiously. It appears that the stability was sufficient to hold the weight of a person, but the weight of the small slide that you kicked off by ski cutting tipped the scale. You were in a safe place. This is part of how experienced skiers manage terrain. I understand how you are full of questions, which is also a good example for your readers. It sounds like you played it closer to the line than you would prefer, and certainly than is closer as an example for less-experienced travelers, but there was still quite a bit of skill and knowledge at work there as well. It’s the self-assessment that is a great example for us all. Thanks for having the courage to put it out there.
tested a slope heading north from phillips pass w. similar results- it’s tough for us cruising around the backcountry to know what is going on below us- i would just say that if you’re getting started a little later in the day that you would want to be heads up about what is going on above you- i mean it’s one thing to drop in on someone below who is visible in your travels- but their are definitely areas where we don’t have that visibility or perspective to work with- jamie yount and i had a stinky feeling about what might happen this spring because the snowpack in general was so reliable this winter- keep your heads up for the first few nights that don’t freeze- things are sliding even with the cold nights- well enough of the preachin’ but you never know what little bit of info. keeps you on the safe side of life
Hi Everybody.
Thanks Steve and everyone else for the honest discussion about pushing it a bit when we know there could be consequences. I like to think that I am fairly skilled at managing risk and knowing when I can go and when it’s no. I make mistakes and always want to make something great happen, even on the days when the conditions forbid.
I think there is a more expansive discussion here about managing and taking risk.
I have failed miserably at making the call a few times, never with any great consequence. Still, I always wonder why I pushed it when there is always another day.
Snow seems not yet consolidated and dicey this week and with people pushing it. Two tragic deaths in Sierras, bad injury in Colorado.
My point was, there’s way more to life than skiing. Live today, ski tomorrow. Not trying to pass judgement on Steve, just bringing up the notion of doing something else from life’s rich pageant untill it’s good to go and to be a passionate skier but not a ski junkie.
Chuck, that s@&# is a joke. That CIA asset has been dead for years. And please explain how is it risky for the most equipped army in the world to attack a small house in a country where they can come and go as they please. More lies by the O-bot to try and get re-elected. Pure theatre for zombies!!!
Thanks for the honest and to the point reply. I was just curious on what your thought/decision process was.
Others, I never said what Steve did was wrong, wasn’t there to make the call. I’d go skiing with Steve any day and as an out of towner that has never skied with Steve, don’t even know him, I would trust his judgement. I was just looking for bit of education on the thought process as I said.
Enjoy your day, I think I will grab my skate deck and go for a roll in the Sistine Chapel.
donny…i’ve been wondering the same thing…if a skier could have triggered the bigger slide or it was just the greater load of the initial slab that broke it loose. either way…upon seeing the path of the avalanche, most the places I thought would be islands of safely, most likely weren’t. not many places to hide when you have a slide that big.
What’s your motto?
“Live To Ski”.
We had similar conditions in the Wasatch last week. Hair trigger…………
Glad you’re safe.
PTOR; I know you take greater risks on the ski slopes then the men who killed Osama. They had it easy. I too would rather be in a gun fight with Osama than suffering in JH.
@PTOR “That CIA asset has been dead for years”
Did you ever think that maybe they said stuff like that to dupe, fools like yourself? They did what no one else could, and that is just the facts. 4 years in the making, 40 minutes of perfect execution. Not everything is a conspiracy; if he had been dead for years as you say, BUSH would have claimed it and loved to take credit for it. You’re an idiot. To say anything sideways about the brave men and women that uphold your freedom to spray stupidity shows a lot about your character. I have very little faith in Obama Bush or any other elected leader but I do have faith and appreciation for those who die for us.
yeah, right.
Steve,
I have been following your blog for years now. I have to say you push things pretty far. Let’s review: Last year you and your partner were lucky to escape a slide that would have killed both of you. You were both in your islands of safety thank god. That was luck. This year you have escaped how many close calls? 2 or 3 or ?? Luck is holding, but you know as well as anyone… luck will not last forever (look at all the deceased mountaineers in JH).
Statistics show that it’s the experienced folks who usually get in trouble, cause they can ‘assess’ the conditions and have the experience… the mountains and the snow don’t care how good you are.
Don’t mean to lecture, but I don’t want to read about you Steve like we read about Kip this week. Take care, ski safe, have fun.
foolish
Someone has a close call. They share an honest, humble account of it, and in doing so they inform and educate others.
If your response to this is to critique the snow assessment from the comfort of your computer monitor, then you are a jackass who spends very little time in the mountains.
Wow, this is the best conversation on the internet right now, great points all.
The Norse Gods of snow and skiing demand gratitude, respect, and sacrifice! Glad they didn’t ask of you the latter! Pretty sweet that it was your little slab on top and not a footstep on the way up that broke the big slab. This I have been thinking about alot lately. The inherent vulnerability of the human climber amid great lines in good condition…I feel like all the pow in heaven is gonna be tracked out soon. Super convienient broken binding for Lynn and co., thank god for chaotic systems! Obama got Osama, but will the War on Terror and it’s infrastructure and beauracracy still last “many of our lifetimes”?
Nice tr that shows being patient with your “ski cuts” at the top is important.
“Situational awareness” is a good term. Plus you skied the line anyway. Cool.
i’m glad it didn’t rip on the way up as well…but i think booting probably doesn’t load the slope nearly as much as skiing it. just a guess though.
the safest ascent line was probably more to the looker’s left, though not completely safe until you reached the ridge line. BUT, it was a little more traversey at the top and we ended up following a slight (really slight) ridge in the middle of the slope.
to add…when we were thinking about pulling the plug due to the snowpack (about halfway up the line), it kinda seemed safer to go to the top as opposed to starting from smack dab in the middle of the slope.
Ski cuts are where it’s at!
also…
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24599
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24603
Set one off just northeast of Rock Chuck. 18-36 inch crown. Still had the skins on the skis. The white dragon was active on Sunday.
ty, the ect has a very low false stable rate.
Scott Fennell, I think Steve might be ok with us critiquing, I know I would be. I got caught a few weeks ago and the discussions we had following really helped. Why not do an ECT? In too much of a rush? I sometimes am. But it only adds to your arsenal of observations, like all the recent activity on similar slopes in the Tetons. Risk vs. reward I guess.
steve,
I think you should reconsider your thoughts on how a booter can impact a slope. A pair of skis can and usually will bridge a sensitive layer better than the deeper perforation-like effect of a booter. Also, going from what we like to tell ourselves are islands of safety on a slope like that can also be counter productive as the snow around the exposed rock is generally faceted and less supportable than a fatter or more homogenus pack.
Not trying to criticize your event….lord knows I have lost big in similar situations, but just thought I’d point out what I see as flaws in your analysis.
Multiple quick pits are always a good option on the way up. Tests are always personal on the interpretation of results.
I think the difference between the effect of bootpacking and skinning on triggering an instability depends on what kind of instability it is and on the terrain. If it is deeper, a load is a load, but if it’s a surface layer then the skis will cut the tension in a slab more than a bootpack. Then, given the same terrain and load, someone skinning and someone bootpacking will take different routes and access a “trigger” zone differently.
@Derek…I’ll take care of my own freedom thank you. Please, please, please nobody die for me. Also check your “facts”…
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24612
You been jipped!
Regarding booting vs skiing. There was a fatal accident in Norway last year, where two skiers had skied down a colouir, but changed their minds and went up. The accident report said that the booting triggered the avalanche, as the pressure was much higher.
I am glad you posted that link, it explains even more about who you are and where your ideas come from. I think you’re smart enough to realize that, it’s not a pick or choose who you die for game. It’s an all or nothing real life decision. They do it for this country, and so people like you can live in your alternate reality. Thinking that you know more then you do, and thinking you can actually defend yourself if there was no military doing so. I hate all most every military plan right now, but I still support the soldiers 100%. They are laying their lives on the line for you like or not. The military industrial complex is out of control, but our solders are just as brave as they have ever been. I will end it here because there is no getting through to you and I know that, but what I also know is deep down you know I am right and that’s what matters.
Sorry Steve I know it’s a ski site, so I will end it here.
As to the comments stressing a single ECT, while that may have given Steve some additional information, one pit itself is not remotely representative of the entire route. Mutiple hand pits, etc… on the way up (as Steve did) are a better source of a wide-variety of information than one full ECT in a particular spot on the slope. Spatial variability – you could dig that ECT 2 feet to the right and get completely different results.
Having said that, the more info the better, so if Steve could have found a representative spot, I supposed he could have dug a quick hasty pit to gather more info. But I would not make or break his decision on the failure to dig one pit.
However, Steve – trust your gut! You recognized the red flags, now you just need to respond to them (e.g., bail). Glad you are OK and no one behind you.
sorry, but pits, ECT’s, spatial variability, safe zones, booting vs skinning, etc didn’t have much to do with this. This was a decision that could have been made the night before.
Given what Steve posted a few days before : similar aspects, similar elevations, large sensitive dangerous slides, a little more snow that if anything would have added to the load/danger: you make this go/nogo call over coffee.
Thanks, Steve for posting that stuff last week. I hadn’t heard about the Static & Open Canyon slides. That knowledge might have saved my life. I’ll take recent avy obs over pit data 99.9 times out of 100.
As far as heading up Hanging Canyon leaving the car at, what, 9am? May 1st, sun hitting huge slopes above, especially given the current conditions : wtf? You leave that late in the spring and you have to expect risk from above, whether human or natural caused. At least Steve had his timing right.
Call me an asshole armchair quarterback if you want. I wrestled with the temptation of the String Lake access for days last week, I’m not the only one that said “no f*ckin way”
So Tony, just because I didn’t get up as early as you, then I deserve to be slid on?
We had our antennae up for naturals but there were still clouds over the high mountains, a dry snowpack up there. Not enough heating yet for low to mid elevation wet slides that day. Nothing was moving naturally, only skier-triggered.
Nope, I am not buying it. Even when you go into the mtns with your buddies, you are part of the community and beholden to behave well, not endanger others, take them out with the results of your bad decisions. Do you trundle off loose rock when you can, regardless of the traffic below you?
We could have been coming down Hanging Canyon after an early mission and been avalanched on, would that change your judgment? We were headed for something cold and north-facing, not SE-facing and cross-loaded similar to the many other events of the recent few days.
I agree with Tony, recent activity on similar slopes was a red flag. I have made the same exact mistake, and it is statistically one of the most commonly overlooked signs leading to accidents. Nick, I agree, multiple quick pits are better than one ECT; but both would be even better. First dig numerous hand pits to recognize the nature of spatial variability, then do your true columns in representative locations.
Lynne, are you saying Steve should avoid slopes because someone might be in the run out? I would say the Tetons are busy, and you better watch out for people above you.
No, I am saying that your decision-making affects more than just you and your party. When you are considering Likelihood and Consequences of a decision, consequences can be extended to affect others as well.
It seemed to me that these guys knew, from both history and current conditions (clearly enough, without needing to do an ECT, if your hand pits are well calibrated) that likelihood of triggering was quite high, yet proceeded. They were lucky that the consequences were minimal this time for both themselves and others, but they are not always so. I do watch out for people above me, and I guess that is the lesson here, that those above me don’t always follow their own well-meaning advice.
It seems fair to say that avalanches are an inexact science. The more experienced one is the more precisely one can pinpoint the danger. But that experience is also a danger in and of itself. It makes us inch closer and closer to what we see as the line between safe and not safe. Everybody has to figure out for themselves how comfortable they are with risk, but I would hope that we all remember to try and determine where the line is and then give it a little extra room as a habit. It may mean not skiing as much, or not skiing something that looks perfect, but the alternative can be awfully final. I know the one time I got caught it was because I thought I knew more than I did and I missed one critical piece of info. In retrospect I could see what I missed, but the real mistake was in thinking that “it’s just this side of safe,” was safe enough.
Lynn,
I find it strange that you blame others but won’t blame your own poor decision making prowess. You were late out of the gate. You got up late, had coffee late, met your friends late but still decided it was ok to trudge up a slope late in the morning that most likely would see snow sliding activity as the sun cooked the slope. Its May! The sun is out! Wakey wakey eggs and bakey.
Ugh,
We don’t even know what time Lynn left her house, I don’t think she actually tells us. What if it was 7:30 – does that mean she deserves to have a yay-hoo drop one on her? What if it was 6:45? How about 8:00?
Maybe you should just tell us . . . what time did Lynn need to leave her house in order to not have someone drop a slab on her?
Her point, which is an effing good one, is that people’s actions impact more than themselves and the people in the their party. Why is this controversial? You seem a little defensive on this.
Nobody can compel you or me or TetonAT to not ski a rolling 40-degree loaded slope when we know the conditions are extremely hard to have a high degree of confidence in. Ski it if you want.
Lynn’s only point is that you are not alone. So while you may ski cut a slab and then dive for an “island of safety”, there may be someone below you totally exposed. Maybe you don’t give a shit about that and think that is their problem because they may have gotten up later than you.
All you have to do is read this blog to realize that people are kicking off numerous minor slabs and some big ones. The conditions are not normal for April / May and they are generally more unstable than usual. TetonAT knowingly increased his risk by climbing and skiing that route. He also increased the risk for others.
Hope the snow is settling, although it doesn’t seem like it is possible to have much confidence just yet.
enter the world of the high risk apex athelete; observe, learn, beware.
Perhaps Steve feels he needs to post stories to keep viewers visiting and that internal “pressure” has him venturing outdoors in questionable conditions. Maybe others should contribute.
Lynn,
When did you leave the house? And when did you start skinning?
“We thought about turning around and pulling the plug a few times, but the temps
were still cold and we though that we’d be able to make our way safely down the
skiers left side of the couloir, without any problems. As we got higher, summit fever
started to build and the stoke to ski was hard to ignore.”
The weather is finally starting to show some signs of spring…game on…people, let’s be aware of what’s above you and below you! Factor in all the facts…air temp vs. snow temps…sun vs. shade…ECT’s…elevation changes…and the masses that are/will be dropping in and skinning up…especially on the more popular lines. Be careful out there…I’m getting tired of collecting stickers of my deceased friends!
Maybe it’s time for registration boxes at trail heads (esp the busy ones). Destination, time of departure, expected return, etc.
Then folks arriving later whether 15 minutes or 2 hours can factor the additional travelers variable into their hazard analysis
skitime…interesting thought. i first thought this was not a great idea, but the more i think about it, the more i like it. but…i think the boxes would easily get buried by snow, unless there was maintenance involved moving it up and down a pole or something.
Glad you’re alright Steve, scary incident.
My only gripe is when you say “there would have been zero chance of survival if you were caught in it…” I would argue that proclaiming an absolute like that creates unsafe mental process. That kind of thing falls in the same category of statement as “this is a safe zone” or “this slope isn’t going to slide.” The dynamic mountain environment calls for dynamic information gathering and decision making.
@skitime, love your idea, would be very valuable in the park for sure.
thanks drew…interesting take. if you saw the powder cloud and the track of the slide…i think you would have agreed with me that anyone caught in it would most likely have been toast. and i think that realizing we are mortal and often not able to survive avalanches, might keep us from pushing it in the future. then again…maybe not.
[…] was caught in while filming in New Zealand a few years ago. After a few close calls last year (like this and this), I’m pretty much scared shitless of avalanches these days (which might be a good […]